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Post by Dale Malusi on Jul 10, 2016 21:59:01 GMT -5
What, can't they get their story together?
HEY! It's July. If you'd just be honest, you could have released the whole report, instead of tidbits, a long time ago.
It doesn't matter, I won't believe it anyways.
I can only stick my finger in a light socket so many times....
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Post by hartman756 on Jul 11, 2016 17:45:59 GMT -5
They need more time to manipulate it to show what they want it too. A certain NRC member was asking a lot of leading questions in regards to the MARs and what data there was to show they were working   |
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Post by bucksnbows on Jul 11, 2016 19:14:39 GMT -5
Perfect screen shot to send to Chad.
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Post by daappleknocker on Jul 12, 2016 7:33:49 GMT -5
If you remember they did this last year. Used the U.P. antlerless/archery debate as an excuse. They barely passed the 50% response rate last year and I have heard it was UNDER 50% this year, which raises some credibility questions. Many DNR surveys are invalid if the response rate falls below 50%. Will they supplement the mailed surveys with internet surveys? Will they use ALL online responses or just the ones they pick?
The credibility of these surveys comes into question when they start to manipulate the findings. It has been established many years ago that the more avid "sportsmen" respond to these surveys as the average Joe, non-affiliated "hunters" refuse to participate. This makes the surveys invalid when determining support for MAR's and hunter satisfaction rates. They know this but refuse to acknowledge it, even denying it in an e-mail.
BnB, feel free to send this to Chad. |
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Post by hartman756 on Jul 12, 2016 11:20:44 GMT -5
Perfect screen shot to send to Chad. Yes please do  I don't see why he would not understand why things like this cause hunters to no longer trust the DNR . It is the DNR's own fault by doing things like this. No reason this report was not completed in the timeframe it was supposed to (along with others that have been conveniently delayed like the latest hunter opinion survey that showed MARs in a bad light and was delayed till after the recent big push for MARs was completed ) !
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Post by bucksnbows on Jul 12, 2016 17:21:40 GMT -5
Did any of you contact the dnr and ask why it's not out yet?
Or are yall just gonna come up with conspiracies?
If you'd like I can discuss this with an unmentioned dnr employee tomorrow after filming a segment for a local TV show.
I'm sure there is a logical reason.
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Post by fullthrottlehunter on Jul 12, 2016 17:29:27 GMT -5
So sad. Collusion, strawman arguments, and conspiracy theories are all that's left when one loses their argument. For a few of you guys, the Mother Mary herself could compile the data and you still wouldn't believe it because you disagree with the outcome. Any remotely relevent arguments against APR's have been exhausted.
Over the past 15 years, the harvest reports have come out between early June and mid July. The last few, including the current report, have come out in early to mid July. The fact that anyone would suggest that our DNR would manipulate the data is absurd and irresponsible.
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Post by fullthrottlehunter on Jul 12, 2016 17:31:16 GMT -5
Perfect screen shot to send to Chad. Wouldn't do you a bit of good. They wouldn't believe the response anyway. |
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Post by daappleknocker on Jul 12, 2016 19:22:51 GMT -5
Full is a apropos name as you are full of it. Last year was the first year it was delayed until July and this year the same. There is a reason for the delay. They need more time to manipulate the results. You try to act informed but you are not. |
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Post by bucksnbows on Jul 12, 2016 20:59:33 GMT -5
Full is a apropos name as you are full of it. Last year was the first year it was delayed until July and this year the same. There is a reason for the delay. They need more time to manipulate the results. You try to act informed but you are not. Can you prove this? If you can't then I would stop making accusations. That has always been your biggest downfall. You make claims and never back them up. If it is true bring it to light so we as hunters, regardless of views on management can work together to end any mishandlings by the dnr. But until I see substantial proof I can't get behind your conspiracy theories. |
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Post by fullthrottlehunter on Jul 12, 2016 21:16:51 GMT -5
..... But until I see substantial proof I can't get behind your conspiracy theories. Neither can many others as evidenced by forum traffic and active posters on here or Facebook. It (false claims of collusion and conspiracy theories) was the downfall of the movement against APR's from the start. |
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Post by QDM MARS on Jul 13, 2016 0:12:59 GMT -5
Did any of you contact the dnr and ask why it's not out yet? Or are yall just gonna come up with conspiracies? If you'd like I can discuss this with an unmentioned dnr employee tomorrow after filming a segment for a local TV show. I'm sure there is a logical reason.
Is this another one of your attempts to try to make others think you are some how important? Like when you claimed the fix was in for the LPDMI per a DNR family member ( is this the same DNR employee in this current claim)? Now how did all that bragging back then work out for you 
All this from someone who still believes that kosh was KPC.
BWHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHH.........
Here is a conspiracy on a level you guys would embarrass yourselves by pissing all down front of your pants like a little child if you knew the details ........................
Who's jet do you think was the main player in the videos I made spoofing the secret MARs meetings in the middle of the night ?
(disclaimer : I don't think you guys were really that stupid to believe it was anything but a spoof even though you pretended to believed otherwise............................................... On second thought maybe you guys were that stupid )
And second , what do you think those secret meetings were really all about ? I will give you a hint , "some" of the details were reveled on fox news several months later  I will also say that another one of those middle of the night secret meetings took place recently , and I expect several more will be taking place soon ( and no I did not take any new video as I was not invited to be there when this one took place )
Another disclaimer: I am not claiming these meetings have anything to do directly with your "bit player buddies " that " are the DNR" . It has to do with making sure their people get put in place several levels above the DNR , and then that those people put in place other key people further on down the line . And yes ,some of these key people are indirectly related to the MARs policies ( yes that is another big hint ) !
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Post by bucksnbows on Jul 13, 2016 5:52:32 GMT -5
Did any of you contact the dnr and ask why it's not out yet? Or are yall just gonna come up with conspiracies? If you'd like I can discuss this with an unmentioned dnr employee tomorrow after filming a segment for a local TV show. I'm sure there is a logical reason.
Is this another one of your attempts to try to make others think you are some how important? Like when you claimed the fix was in for the LPDMI per a DNR family member ( is this the same DNR employee in this current claim)? Now how did all that bragging back then work out for you
All this from someone who still believes that kosh was KPC.
BWHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHH.........
Here is a conspiracy on a level you guys would embarrass yourselves by pissing all down front of your pants like a little child if you knew the details ........................
Who's jet do you think was the main player in the videos I made spoofing the secret MARs meetings in the middle of the night ?
(disclaimer : I don't think you guys were really that stupid to believe it was anything but a spoof even though you pretended to believed otherwise............................................... On second thought maybe you guys were that stupid )
And second , what do you think those secret meetings were really all about ? I will give you a hint , "some" of the details were reveled on fox news several months later I will also say that another one of those middle of the night secret meetings took place recently , and I expect several more will be taking place soon ( and no I did not take any new video as I was not invited to be there when this one took place )
Another disclaimer: I am not claiming these meetings have anything to do directly with your "bit player buddies " that " are the DNR" . It has to do with making sure their people get put in place several levels above the DNR , and then that those people put in place other key people further on down the line . And yes ,some of these key people are indirectly related to the MARs policies ( yes that is another big hint ) !
This is to start very childish. And to end makes absolutely no sense to me. |
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Post by bucksnbows on Jul 13, 2016 5:56:11 GMT -5
And it is true I had (past tense) a family member who worked for the dnr.
It is true she said the dnr leaned toward the idea of aprs.
It is not true I said it was a slam dunk.
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Post by daappleknocker on Jul 13, 2016 8:42:17 GMT -5
First let me say that I am not an uninvolved armchair or internet critic/prognosticator. I have been extremely involved with our wildlife resource management since my retirement in 2006, including deer, moose, wolf and bears. I have attended over 100 meetings, all over the state on my own dime, involving these resources and have sat on several round-tables and advisory teams and believe my presence has made a difference. When my reputation for truth and my resistance to incorporating "social science" into our regulations became more apparent, my name was dropped from any further involvement. My refusal to just "go with the flow" has had consequences.
I am not afraid of these people and they have no hold or leverage on me or what I say, and I believe that makes me a threat. If you can not control someone, the playbook instructs you to control what other people think of them. The QDM and MAR's people have had a field day with my reputation on "unsocial" media sites.
I have been extremely disparaged for my contention that there has been a conspiracy regarding quality deer management and the mandatory antler restrictions that have found their way into our regulations. PROVE IT they demand, and yet as these influences manifest themselves collection data and survey wording they refuse to acknowledge it.
Don't they realize that a conspiracy by definition is "a carefully planned SECRET SCHEME formulated by one or more persons involving deceit aimed at achieving a personal advantage, goal or agenda". These conspiracies are absolutely "clandestine" in nature, "done in secrecy or concealment for purposes of subversion or deception".
Like Bill "Bubba" Clinton and Loretta Lynch meeting on a remote tarmac. This was a planned clandestine meeting therefore making it part of the bigger conspiracy. The only reason that it was revealed to the public was because of a true American patriot who saw the injustice and alerted the press.
So, all I have to say to those who think it is a sport to attack me, Curtis Stone, AKA da Appleknocker, is that drinking the Kool-Aid mixed and provided by others has blurred your thinking. You need to get involved and choose to mix your own flavor. They add a lot of sweetener to make it more palatable, but the TRUTH is often bitter. Don't be one of those people who only "see what they want to see" or "hear what they want to hear". Do not condemn the TRUTH because you fear it. Don't live the lie because the TRUTH is too hard.
Now back to the OP subject. I believe they are taking extra time to release this ADHSR until mid-summer is because fewer people are paying attention. I believe that hunter numbers have dropped again with harvest number down especially in the U.P.. The response rate has fallen for the sixth straight year so approval of hunters choice will inch up. With the response rate so low, ALL statistics will be as erroneous as the HC approval rate. When you have an influx of "avid sportsmen" and a lack of average Joe, non-affiliated hunters these ADHSR will be abnormally skewed toward the "agenda".
Why has the response rate been going down for several years? Because the average Joe, non-affiliated hunters have experienced a reduced satisfaction from hunting because of MAR's and have either stopped hunting or are disgruntled enough to say screw the survey and put it into the circular file.
I realize that for those who can not see and refuse to hear, this will be a comical read. |
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Post by bucksnbows on Jul 13, 2016 10:39:24 GMT -5
......but you have failed to provide evidence of your claims.
Yes the wording on the NW12 survey should not of been allowed. I did not read it in away where I believed that paragraph would be a result of aprs but then again I know better.
It may of been influential, it may not have....neither of us really know.
Again of all the wrong doing you claim to be being done, you either......
Can't prove it.
Or for whatever reason haven't proved it.
Claiming it's true and providing evidence that it is are two huge differences.
And that is why you catch flack for it.
I don't want fudged numbers, but until I see proof I expect the stats are true.
Example.....supplemental data.
Once it came to light I was glad it was broke down with it removed.
In the end it made little difference with or without it.
I'm glad the extra wording was brought to light and not to be seen in any future proposals.
Problems found and problems fixed.
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Post by fullthrottlehunter on Jul 13, 2016 12:33:22 GMT -5
Did any of you contact the dnr and ask why it's not out yet? Or are yall just gonna come up with conspiracies? If you'd like I can discuss this with an unmentioned dnr employee tomorrow after filming a segment for a local TV show. I'm sure there is a logical reason.
Is this another one of your attempts to try to make others think you are some how important? Like when you claimed the fix was in for the LPDMI per a DNR family member ( is this the same DNR employee in this current claim)? Now how did all that bragging back then work out for you
All this from someone who still believes that kosh was KPC.
BWHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHH.........
Here is a conspiracy on a level you guys would embarrass yourselves by pissing all down front of your pants like a little child if you knew the details ........................
Who's jet do you think was the main player in the videos I made spoofing the secret MARs meetings in the middle of the night ?
(disclaimer : I don't think you guys were really that stupid to believe it was anything but a spoof even though you pretended to believed otherwise............................................... On second thought maybe you guys were that stupid )
And second , what do you think those secret meetings were really all about ? I will give you a hint , "some" of the details were reveled on fox news several months later I will also say that another one of those middle of the night secret meetings took place recently , and I expect several more will be taking place soon ( and no I did not take any new video as I was not invited to be there when this one took place )
Another disclaimer: I am not claiming these meetings have anything to do directly with your "bit player buddies " that " are the DNR" . It has to do with making sure their people get put in place several levels above the DNR , and then that those people put in place other key people further on down the line . And yes ,some of these key people are indirectly related to the MARs policies ( yes that is another big hint ) !
Uhh, OK? |
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Post by fullthrottlehunter on Jul 13, 2016 12:44:18 GMT -5
......but you have failed to provide evidence of your claims. Yes the wording on the NW12 survey should not of been allowed. I did not read it in away where I believed that paragraph would be a result of aprs but then again I know better. It may of been influential, it may not have....neither of us really know. Again of all the wrong doing you claim to be being done, you either...... Can't prove it. Or for whatever reason haven't proved it. Claiming it's true and providing evidence that it is are two huge differences. And that is why you catch flack for it. I don't want fudged numbers, but until I see proof I expect the stats are true. Example.....supplemental data. Once it came to light I was glad it was broke down with it removed. In the end it made little difference with or without it. I'm glad the extra wording was brought to light and not to be seen in any future proposals. Problems found and problems fixed. He catches flak for it because of continued unsubstantiated claims and insults directed at the DNR/NRC, both in public and privately. You cannot have an effective debate or dialogue with someone who starts every conversation at the meeting by hurling insults and making false claims of collusion and conspiracy theories. They don't fear that behavior. There's no reason to. |
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Post by daappleknocker on Jul 13, 2016 13:43:42 GMT -5
Full, I'm sorry, have we met. I don't ever remember seeing you at any of the meetings I have attended. Oh, maybe that is because you hide behind your internet anonymity. Not being at any meetings you are making very broad accusations against me. The only meeting that I lost my temper at was the first LP-DMI meeting in Lansing. After listening to about an hour of manipulated data about the Leelanau 045 DMU MAR's statistics and many half-truths and misleading statements, I told Brent Rudolf and the other DNR personnel that if they did not review the NW-12 survey results the "gloves would come off", and they did. Some in the crowd thought I was threatening violence and ask the Law Division to arrest me. What a joke. Your statements in your last post about me interrupting every meeting with conspiracy talk is laughable. You are listening to people with the agenda of destroying my credibility. |
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Post by daappleknocker on Jul 13, 2016 13:52:19 GMT -5
Oh, and by the way, it does NOT take a rocket scientist to figure out that there are private meetings and conversations, phone and internet, being held by DNR and NRC officials with those pushing these extreme MAR's agendas. In the case of Hunter's Choice regulations for the U.P. in 2008, they were caught red handed and had to admit it publically.
It is hard to prove a conspiracy just by definition. (see above post) But, if you are very observant and watch and listen to those in positions of power, it is as evident as the nose on your face, just as when I read your post I know you are ignorant. Sorry, couldn't help myself. |
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Post by fullthrottlehunter on Jul 13, 2016 14:59:25 GMT -5
Full, I'm sorry, have we met. I don't ever remember seeing you at any of the meetings I have attended. Oh, maybe that is because you hide behind your internet anonymity. Not being at any meetings you are making very broad accusations against me. The only meeting that I lost my temper at was the first LP-DMI meeting in Lansing. After listening to about an hour of manipulated data about the Leelanau 045 DMU MAR's statistics and many half-truths and misleading statements, I told Brent Rudolf and the other DNR personnel that if they did not review the NW-12 survey results the "gloves would come off", and they did. Some in the crowd thought I was threatening violence and ask the Law Division to arrest me. What a joke. Your statements in your last post about me interrupting every meeting with conspiracy talk is laughable. You are listening to people with the agenda of destroying my credibility. There was a time I was at many of the meetings, including various NRC meetings. I never said that you interrupted any meetings. What I said was when a person decides to insult those tasked with wildlife policy both publicly and privately with unsubstantiated claims of corruption and collusion....their message will never be taken seriously or respected. That is what happened. |
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Post by bucksnbows on Jul 13, 2016 16:07:51 GMT -5
I spoke with Chad today.
He said he just reviewed the 2nd draft of the harvest data.
He is not sure what the delay is....but he still will need to review the final draft before releasing.
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Post by daappleknocker on Jul 13, 2016 17:30:42 GMT -5
Throttle, your words were, "You cannot have an effective debate or dialog with someone who starts EVERY CONVERSATION AT THE MEETING by hurling insults and making false claims of collusion and conspiracy theories." I rarely speak at the NRC meetings and when I do I never hurl insults. Many of my claims have been proven true and the truth will eventually prove them all true. If you had been lied to as many times as I have been by the "Department" you would be suspicious also. I did however wear a tinfoil hat at an NRC meeting to irritate the LP-DMI tricksters and it worked as their proposal was voted down that day. |
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Post by ridge on Jul 13, 2016 17:40:13 GMT -5
QDM and daappleknocker have been friends and acquaintances of mine for several years. They are men of honor and integrity. I have never know them to be intentionally misleading or deceptive. They have been involved in the survey and mapr debate for a long time.
A person often cannot cite sources of information or even relay complete details of information if one wants to continue to use that source. This is especially true in departments of government. It is often true that what happens behind the scenes and in private is more telling and more important than what is shared with the public. At least that has been my experience in dealing with various areas and levels of government.
Dr. Mason, the Chief of the Wildlife Division, has a history. If one has a desire to get to know it, please consult the information that is available on the web from the state in which he worked. I found a considerable amount of information. Patterns of performance do not often change but they do become more subtle and secretive as one learns to become more protective of his or her's office.
My opinions on the survey process are based not on subjective feelings but on my experiences teaching areas of statistical analysis and probability for which I studied as a minor. MIT and Harvard are the pioneers and are the recognized standard bearers of statistical analysis. I have shared my beliefs concerning the surveys in various venues and have been summarily dismissed because they do not serve the purposes of the dnr management or of the mapr promotion groups. Is it purely by chance that when the management has been surprised by an assessment in the past that suddenly there was a subtle but an important change in the surveying instrument? Why do the surveys not include representatives of all contingents in the target aggregate? Why is the collected number of that aggregate so small? The management states that it is due to cost and convenience. They also state that it is just as accurate as a more comprehensive collection of responses. MIT and Harvard have said that is not true. Why have the methods of collection not been constant or not have been held to a standard open norm of collection? Why have the responses not included one or two groups which MIT or other groups have said are basic to a statistical survey? Why have the reports or conclusions used varied amounts and foci of surveyed data? I pointed this out at a NRC meeting and the chairman repeated the question when an attempt was made to divert the answer. Finally it was acknowledged that conclusion was in error but then discussion was ended. I do not believe that is unusual under the present management of the process.
Statistical analysis is only as sound or as valuable as is the consistent complete objective data that is used. An objective view of the last few years of surveys would show that the information has been attempted to be skewed or directed toward a particular desired result. Management banks on the fact that a minute part of the hunters or of the public would have any knowledge of statistical analysis. The idea is that what is written has to be believed or it would not be written. It can be true for the smaller part of the aggregate targeted in the directed survey but not as an assessment of the aggregate as a whole. That is how truth can be misrepresentative of what is really true and of value for the stated target of the survey.
Believe as you wish. I did not make up these facts for my pleasure. The information is in the public venue. I have been openly discredited and attacked for sharing it. It seems that type of behavior is to be expected when the clarity of truth is brought to light on any public discourse. Eventually a price has to be paid for illusion. It just a matter of who pays the price and of when it is paid. Power and self-interest are often the motivations for intentional illusions in public policy. In the case of deer management, I make no assumptions.
In the northeast part of our state similar tactics were used years ago. What resulted? A large overpopulation of deer and an explosion of a disease took place. The deer herd, hunters, and domestic herdsmen have paid the price. The few that shielded the facts and called the shots to make this scenario possible are dead or are long gone. The tactics have been altered and the focus changed but the process continues.
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Post by Dale Malusi on Jul 13, 2016 20:03:13 GMT -5
From BnB;
"Once it came to light I was glad it was broke down with it removed.
In the end it made little difference with or without it. "
Lame excuse. Once you set foot over my property line, you are trespassing. NO EXCUSES!!
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Post by Dale Malusi on Jul 13, 2016 20:05:37 GMT -5
So sad. Collusion, strawman arguments, and conspiracy theories are all that's left when one loses their argument. For a few of you guys, the Mother Mary herself could compile the data and you still wouldn't believe it because you disagree with the outcome. Any remotely relevent arguments against APR's have been exhausted. Over the past 15 years, the harvest reports have come out between early June and mid July. The last few, including the current report, have come out in early to mid July. The fact that anyone would suggest that our DNR would manipulate the data is absurd and irresponsible. Said the guy who doesn't even live in the good old state of Michigan. LOL! |
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Post by fullthrottlehunter on Jul 13, 2016 20:20:48 GMT -5
Throttle, your words were, "You cannot have an effective debate or dialog with someone who starts EVERY CONVERSATION AT THE MEETING by hurling insults and making false claims of collusion and conspiracy theories." I rarely speak at the NRC meetings and when I do I never hurl insults. Many of my claims have been proven true and the truth will eventually prove them all true. If you had been lied to as many times as I have been by the "Department" you would be suspicious also. I did however wear a tinfoil hat at an NRC meeting to irritate the LP-DMI tricksters and it worked as their proposal was voted down that day. Curtis, the "at the meeting" was made as a general statement referring to your comments on forums, at meetings, and on other social media....not in the literal sense. Meaning, you having made those statements makes it difficult for them to take you seriously. Sorry for any confusion. |
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Post by fullthrottlehunter on Jul 13, 2016 20:22:10 GMT -5
So sad. Collusion, strawman arguments, and conspiracy theories are all that's left when one loses their argument. For a few of you guys, the Mother Mary herself could compile the data and you still wouldn't believe it because you disagree with the outcome. Any remotely relevent arguments against APR's have been exhausted. Over the past 15 years, the harvest reports have come out between early June and mid July. The last few, including the current report, have come out in early to mid July. The fact that anyone would suggest that our DNR would manipulate the data is absurd and irresponsible. Said the guy who doesn't even live in the good old state of Michigan. LOL! Sad that the guy who doesn't live there currently knows more about what's going on than you do. |
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Post by bucksnbows on Jul 13, 2016 20:58:49 GMT -5
From BnB; "Once it came to light I was glad it was broke down with it removed. In the end it made little difference with or without it. " Lame excuse. Once you set foot over my property line, you are trespassing. NO EXCUSES!! And what would you suggest be done? |
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Post by bucksnbows on Jul 13, 2016 20:59:52 GMT -5
Said the guy who doesn't even live in the good old state of Michigan. LOL! Sad that the guy who doesn't live their currently knows more about what's going on than you do. Yep |
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I will also say that another one of those middle of the night secret meetings took place recently , and I expect several more will be taking place soon ( and no I did not take any new video as I was not invited to be there when this one took place ) 