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Post by Dale Malusi on Apr 12, 2017 6:29:56 GMT -5
Now the good dr is promoting Mapr’s as a tool to fight CWD and bTb.
When will they stop? How long have they been pushing these restrictions and how many times have they been turned down?
Too long and too many.
The claims are the majority of the buck harvested are immature deer. What is a mature deer? If we use the criteria we use for deer on humans, how old is a mature human? I’d say about 45, give or take a decade.
I don’t know how it went from, “I will oppose restrictions in disease areas!” to “Why MAPRs are the right thing to do to better manage disease”.
The numbers are being shown by some that Mapr’s are creating a trophy hunters’ nirvana. Numbers( we know how they can be manipulated). All that is being shown is what is advantageous to the cause. Any data that is detrimental is ignored and when it is brought to the forefront it is dismissed as conspiracy theorist propaganda. The thing is they are trying to pull the wool over the NRC’s eyes.
They have taken some of the enjoyment out of deer hunting by their incessant banter about how bad our deer hunting is here and how much better they would have it if Mapr’s would just be the rule of law.
I think we should give up. I think we should join them. We should force everyone to stop shooting those deer that are too small. That way they will finally stop complaining about what others are shooting.
NAH!!!
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Post by hartman756 on Apr 12, 2017 8:46:38 GMT -5
Jim brauker spends too much time in a alcohol induced fantasy and not enough time in the real world  |
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Post by Dale Malusi on Apr 12, 2017 10:09:00 GMT -5
I think there is a correlation between when all this big buck mania started and the decline in deer hunter numbers in Michigan.
So declining hunter numbers are a result of the lust for ever larger antlers. The lust for Mapr's is also a result of antler envy.
So there Mapr's will never cure antlermania.
Well, CWD may be the nail in the coffin.
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otto
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Post by otto on Apr 12, 2017 12:25:44 GMT -5
So do you guys suggest just removing all restrictions on bucks in areas of disease, allow unlimited doe tags and that is in your opinion the better option?
Keep in mind the slp has had the highest yearling buck harvest the past decade and the most liberal doe tags.
The slp kills less does than bucks and though the population is lower it took 10 plus years 2 special seasons, two bouts with ehd and Liberal doe tags.
But I guess in light of cwd every hunter is going to change their ways overnight and do what's right?
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Post by hartman756 on Apr 12, 2017 13:50:34 GMT -5
So do you guys suggest just removing all restrictions on bucks in areas of disease, allow unlimited doe tags and that is in your opinion the better option? Keep in mind the slp has had the highest yearling buck harvest the past decade and the most liberal doe tags. The slp kills less does than bucks and though the population is lower it took 10 plus years 2 special seasons, two bouts with ehd and Liberal doe tags. But I guess in light of cwd every hunter is going to change their ways overnight and do what's right?Here is where jim brauker don't have a clue (along with many other things ) . He has his head so far up his rear end over pushing MARs he wants to create an even bigger problem by forcing hunters into changing what they are already willing doing . There are several levels to controlling disease (out side of highly managed clubs like TLC ) . Removal of yearling bucks is one level to help with limiting the spread by dispersal. Hunters are doing that now ( your statement ) and at the same time doing a so so job at killing does. People like jim brauker only see a MARs agenda and the heck with doing what is right  |
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Post by Dale Malusi on Apr 12, 2017 14:03:24 GMT -5
So do you guys suggest just removing all restrictions on bucks in areas of disease, allow unlimited doe tags and that is in your opinion the better option? Keep in mind the slp has had the highest yearling buck harvest the past decade and the most liberal doe tags. The slp kills less does than bucks and though the population is lower it took 10 plus years 2 special seasons, two bouts with ehd and Liberal doe tags. But I guess in light of cwd every hunter is going to change their ways overnight and do what's right? I say remove all restrictions. |
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Post by Dale Malusi on Apr 12, 2017 14:52:54 GMT -5
So do you guys suggest just removing all restrictions on bucks in areas of disease, allow unlimited doe tags and that is in your opinion the better option? Keep in mind the slp has had the highest yearling buck harvest the past decade and the most liberal doe tags. The slp kills less does than bucks and though the population is lower it took 10 plus years 2 special seasons, two bouts with ehd and Liberal doe tags. But I guess in light of cwd every hunter is going to change their ways overnight and do what's right? I think first we must look at our goal. What is that Tom? What is our goal as deer hunters in the fight against disease? |
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Post by ridge on Apr 12, 2017 15:38:22 GMT -5
"If one is going to change the mind of landowners, try offering more money than the folks already leasing the property. Farmers want yearlings including yearling bucks dead because they view them as the most hungry members of the herd. Landowners base their decisions on money (and for the anti hunter owners on sentiment). One will not change the flexible ones until you throw more money in their pockets. The presentation will not change that." The above is my answer to your question. I supplied it on another site in answer to the same question. That question and/or thread might have been yours, Otto  That is what needs to be done to change minds. The presentation will change nothing except to create more little soldiers in already like minds. |
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otto
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Post by otto on Apr 13, 2017 9:47:14 GMT -5
So do you guys suggest just removing all restrictions on bucks in areas of disease, allow unlimited doe tags and that is in your opinion the better option? Keep in mind the slp has had the highest yearling buck harvest the past decade and the most liberal doe tags. The slp kills less does than bucks and though the population is lower it took 10 plus years 2 special seasons, two bouts with ehd and Liberal doe tags. But I guess in light of cwd every hunter is going to change their ways overnight and do what's right? I think first we must look at our goal. What is that Tom? What is our goal as deer hunters in the fight against disease? The number one goal should be reduce the population to well below carrying capacity in disease areas. Hunters are just not doing that. They still kill less than 1 doe per buck within the cwd management area. So hunters are not willing doing what is asked of them when it comes to lowering the population. They are killing yearling bucks. The problem is they are still allowing for the population to remain high. Killing lots of yearling bucks and not enough does.......2 steps forward then 1 step back. That is the exact approach hunters had when the dnr advocated severely lowering the population in the slp starting in the early 2000s Yes hunters began killing more does but still killed more bucks. Like I said it took 10 plus years and 2 bouts with ehd to get the slp population where it is now. Even if it takes half that time to get the cwd zone to the density desired it's still too slow. The time is upon us to get as much accomplished now not 5 years from now. Maprs imo within a disease area isn't about growing big bucks it's about limiting hunters favored targets (bucks) with the hopes it will result in more does being killed. A theory you all have subscribed to.....Maprs put more pressure on doe harvests. I'm not saying it's good or bad. I'm saying it may just accomplish more better results in managing the cwd area and keeping it contained compared to the current plan. Or..... It may be no better or worse. One thing for sure is every method tried based on the data many agencies have based their disease management from has resulted in mixed results with none of them being satisfactory. Maybe Michigan can take a new approach and either show better results or contribute another failed tactic to the list of what's been tried. |
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otto
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Post by otto on Apr 13, 2017 9:55:40 GMT -5
"If one is going to change the mind of landowners, try offering more money than the folks already leasing the property. Farmers want yearlings including yearling bucks dead because they view them as the most hungry members of the herd. Landowners base their decisions on money (and for the anti hunter owners on sentiment). One will not change the flexible ones until you throw more money in their pockets. The presentation will not change that." The above is my answer to your question. I supplied it on another site in answer to the same question. That question and/or thread might have been yours, Otto That is what needs to be done to change minds. The presentation will change nothing except to create more little soldiers in already like minds. You are wrong about farmers. Not all farmers view deer as pests. In fact 25 years of leasing from several different farmers only 1 wanted lots of deer killed and they specifically noted does and to let bucks grow. The others usually boasted as to how many deer they had on their farm. Yes there are farmers who hate deer but you painted a pretty broad picture. I have no idea what you're talking about in terms of throwing money and changing minds. Like I said......not sure if bioactive theory would work but who knows it may. I know you'll fight it because it involves aprs. |
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otto
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Post by otto on Apr 13, 2017 10:02:01 GMT -5
So do you guys suggest just removing all restrictions on bucks in areas of disease, allow unlimited doe tags and that is in your opinion the better option? Keep in mind the slp has had the highest yearling buck harvest the past decade and the most liberal doe tags. The slp kills less does than bucks and though the population is lower it took 10 plus years 2 special seasons, two bouts with ehd and Liberal doe tags. But I guess in light of cwd every hunter is going to change their ways overnight and do what's right?Here is where jim brauker don't have a clue (along with many other things ) . He has his head so far up his rear end over pushing MARs he wants to create an even bigger problem by forcing hunters into changing what they are already willing doing . There are several levels to controlling disease (out side of highly managed clubs like TLC ) . Removal of yearling bucks is one level to help with limiting the spread by dispersal. Hunters are doing that now ( your statement ) and at the same time doing a so so job at killing does. People like jim brauker only see a MARs agenda and the heck with doing what is right Honestly your hatred for the qdm types has left you to be too close minded. I would of never suggested protecting any deer in a diseased area until I saw bios model. He's a smart guy. He's not going to just throw out a model such as he did, applying his credibility to it if he didn't believe it was sound. I'm sure the DNR will look into it further. Just as when Sweeny showed his model of potential cwd spread to the NRC. He too wouldn't tie his name to junk data. And I'm sure his model was taken into consideration. At the end of the day the DNR will have their recommendations. |
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Post by OTC Archer on Apr 14, 2017 1:43:22 GMT -5
So do you guys suggest just removing all restrictions on bucks in areas of disease, allow unlimited doe tags and that is in your opinion the better option? Keep in mind the slp has had the highest yearling buck harvest the past decade and the most liberal doe tags. The slp kills less does than bucks and though the population is lower it took 10 plus years 2 special seasons, two bouts with ehd and Liberal doe tags. But I guess in light of cwd every hunter is going to change their ways overnight and do what's right? Explaining it won't do any good, Otto. Our CWD response plan went into effect in DMU 333. APR's on the restricted tag were removed, unlimited antlerless permits are available, the combo license can be used for antlerless deer during any season, and antlerless tag costs were reduced 40%. How did hunters respond? By killing a dismal 0.73 antlerless deer per buck, the lowest rate in the entire Lower Penninsula. Missouri tried the same thing. Antlerless harvest decreased where APR's were removed, and the disease continues to spread. Thankfully, it appears as though those tasked with actually managing our deer herd instead of pounding away at a keyboard are realizing there may be better ways. Russ made a statement today that the buck tag will be changing in the TB zone in an attempt to increase antlerless harvest. |
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Post by OTC Archer on Apr 14, 2017 1:49:47 GMT -5
So do you guys suggest just removing all restrictions on bucks in areas of disease, allow unlimited doe tags and that is in your opinion the better option? Keep in mind the slp has had the highest yearling buck harvest the past decade and the most liberal doe tags. The slp kills less does than bucks and though the population is lower it took 10 plus years 2 special seasons, two bouts with ehd and Liberal doe tags. But I guess in light of cwd every hunter is going to change their ways overnight and do what's right?Here is where jim brauker don't have a clue (along with many other things ) . He has his head so far up his rear end over pushing MARs he wants to create an even bigger problem by forcing hunters into changing what they are already willing doing . There are several levels to controlling disease (out side of highly managed clubs like TLC ) . Removal of yearling bucks is one level to help with limiting the spread by dispersal. Hunters are doing that now ( your statement ) and at the same time doing a so so job at killing does. People like jim brauker only see a MARs agenda and the heck with doing what is right A so, so, job of killing does? No, actually, they aren't. The antlerless harvest rate per buck in DMU 333 is dismal at best. You call the lowest antlerless harvest per buck in the entire SLP as so, so? Too funny. |
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Post by ridge on Apr 14, 2017 21:30:02 GMT -5
What is funny is that the doe kill is only .1% better in the MAPR areas according to statements that Dr. Jim made. That is certainly not worth the gamble of CWD spreading.
Like I wrote, all that will change minds about killing does is throwing enough money out there to buy up those leases and to offer more money to the farmers than they can get from leases. We all know that those things will not happen so the talk about changing minds is so much stuff blowing in the wind. It is all hot air.
Pro-restriction people are twisting themselves inside out and back again to shout that MAPRs are overwhelmingly successful in the NW12. The data shows that the buck harvest has yet to come back to the harvest before MAPRs. Their few pictures and personal claims have little merit when the true results are examined. They are foolish when looked at beside the possibility of disease. I watched Jimbo's presentation three times. It is filled with projected and manipulated information. Very little of it is based on fact. He just does a good job of acting for his groupies. He gave every one of the NRC a disc copy so it will be seen whether they buy it and want to gamble with the possibilities of more disease.
If more MAPRs are approved, the door will open. CWD will walk in and the deer herd in the entire state will be at risk. That is not a gamble, it is throwing loaded dice with every throw coming up with disease.
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