Suggested change for the combo tag.

[Dale Malusi]

The way the combo tag is now, unrestricted tag and restricted with 4 points or more one one side for bucks needs a little tweaking. The restricted tag is by far too restricting, for those that hunt northern MI that is.
When the group formerly known as LPDMI was pushing their last attempt at restricting all of the lower peninsula, it was in two different proposals. One was for the southern lower counties and one for the northern lower counties that were not under any current mandatory restrictions. The reason being that the two regions habitats were so different that the proposed regulations would put too many older bucks off the table in the north. A four point on one side was proposed in the south while a three point on one side was proposed in the north. That would provide the threshold for the MIDNR to allow these two proposals to proceed.
So if the two regions are so different that the MIDNR required a three point on a side for the LPDMI's (letumgo...) proposals for the northern counties, why do we have a four point restriction on the restricted tag of the combo package?
The MIDNR clearly agrees that the deer grow inferior antlers. The LPDMI clearly agreed, as did most everyone involved in the fight against Mapr's.



We need changes in the combo package to reflect the FACT......
The deer up north are inferior deer.

[ridge]

Doehead, I agree.  Most likely they do not know how to put out two different tags for the same license and they don't know how to enforce it.  They struggle to enforce antlerless permits and MARs near county lines at the present time.

[Dale Malusi]

Dec 9, 2016 17:21:48 GMT -5 ridge said:

Doehead, I agree.  Most likely they do not know how to put out two different tags for the same license and they don't know how to enforce it.  They struggle to enforce antlerless permits and MARs near county lines at the present time.

If that is the case, why did they let a special interest group propose two different mandatory antler proposals?
Why would the DNR/NRC allow so much division amongst deer hunters on an unenforceable regulation.
They obviously thought it was, because I did not hear one person from the DNR say it wasn't.
Northern Michigan hunters are getting the shaft on this one if we want to be fair.

[ridge]

Lot of questions for which I have no answers and the DNR is not saying  

As to your last statement, I agree which is par for this course!

[jbrown]

I think we should go back to the early 80's for a spell say 5-7 yrs and issue only 1 buck tag. Thats it 1 tag.and may a doe on lottery

Lets see how many so called deer hunters keep on deer hunting..

In my world and the people I chat with many guys only hunt because they can swat the first critter that walks by. Whether it be young or old. Antlered or not..

And as a property owner for over 20yrs now.

I have seen a steady decline in population.

And this decline is because of a number of reasons.

But swatting every yearling and doe that walks by can't help.

I have shot a few doe's in those yrs. Mainly old grey ones or previously wounded ones

I killed 2 doe's one yr had both aged one was 9.5 the other 11.5

Neither had yearlings. Some tough eating but made fine stew's

If we went back to one antlered license guy's would have to get picky. And then throw in 1 doe permit on a lottery to give options.

I have pictures saved god knows where of 25/30 deer in my one hay field. Several photos actually over several yrs.

Now I'm lucky to see a deer in that same hay field

People can dessimate a herd, they proved it with buffalo and in DMU452.

[daappleknocker]

Dec 10, 2016 7:29:14 GMT -5 jbrown said:

[daappleknocker]

Dec 10, 2016 7:29:14 GMT -5 jbrown said:

In my world and the people I chat with many guys only hunt because they can swat the first critter that walks by. Whether it be young or old. Antlered or not..

If this is a true statement a one-buck limit would accomplish nothing. They will still shoot the first legal deer that walks by. Less than 4% of hunters harvest two bucks. The combo tag allows hunters time afield after harvesting a buck and is a major money maker for the Department. I have talked ad-nauseam on how to fix the combo tag but no one listens. The restricted tag MUST ALWAYS be used on your second harvested buck. Easy to enforce, if you are checked hunting with your first combo tag only, enforcement action could be taken.

[ridge]

I would not care because I only purchase the single buck tag along with one antlerless tag.  Both of mine went unused this year.  The deer were there but I could not get the shot that I wanted.  Actually my granddaughter took the best shot that I had but I loved that better than if I had taken it.

The days of unlimited over the counter antlerless permits really brought the deer herd down in our area.  I remember that year because our camp quit hunting because so many deer were being slaughtered in the area.  Deer could be seen in any open area prior to that time.  Now they are so nervous they move at the sight of a car or a person.  They are more nocturnal than they used to be.  My guess is the deer herd is down by close to two thirds.

[Dale Malusi]

When I bow hunt, every deer is a target. If I want to shoot it I do. I do not care what is on top of it's head. What is under the head is more significant to me. 
I buy the combo every year and apply for an antlerless tag. If I get the antlerless tag, it is the first tag I use on a doe. If I don't get one, I use the restricted tag on the first doe. I can tag an eight point with the non-restricted tag, but I can't tag a normal six point with the restricted tag.
In all of the years I have purchased the combo I have only once filled both tags on bucks. Most years I fill both combo tags. I hunt public land, so I may get an antlerless permit, but not likely. Every year there is 100 public land tags available for the thousands of hunters in the whole county I hunt in. If you want meat, use the system, right?

[jbrown]

Guys I'm not saying restrict the antlers.. shoot what you want but limit it to one buck tag and doe by lottery. Thats all..

Take one drive around the hunting camps by Ubly And Argyle Swamp after opening day.

I have a photo in my disorganized photo bucket somewhere. 8 deer in one camp on one pole all yearlings.

Poachers will poach no matter what

[daappleknocker]

jbrown, I'm not disagreeing with you, just saying that under a one buck rule there would still be eight yearling bucks on the pole.

[jbrown]

Dec 12, 2016 10:37:14 GMT -5 daappleknocker said:

jbrown, I'm not disagreeing with you, just saying that under a one buck rule there would still be eight yearling bucks on the pole.

So long as they are properly tagged. Then they are done hunting for the yr.. color me wrong.. but with one buck tag I think people will be a little more selective. And more descriminate before snap shooting the first brown hairy target presented.

[jbrown]

The restricted tag MUST ALWAYS be used on your second harvested buck. Easy to enforce, if you are checked hunting with your first combo tag only, enforcement action could be taken.
[/quote]


Link me that law please... I can't seem to find it

[daappleknocker]

jbrown, it is NOT the current law. I am saying it should be. If it was there would be no reason for a one buck rule as it would reduce the hunters who shoot two bucks to under 2%.

[jbrown]

I see.. I was in a state of confusion my bad... that's still 2 licenses for 3 months of season.. which ain't a bad idea.. I keep thinking about waterfowl laws and how restrictive they got. Thousands quit waterfowl. Especially during the points era.. now early season goose is a 5 bird limit and it brought everyone out.. I still believe if doe permits went back to a restricted lottery you would see a population increase

[daappleknocker]

jbrown, my opinion on antlerless permits is that ALL antlerless deer should be harvested on an antlerless specific tag. No more harvesting antlerless deer on a firearms or combo tag. The Division could manage deer numbers by DMU a lot easier. As it is now they do NOT know how many antlerless deer are harvested by archery hunters. With the influx of bow hunters due to full inclusion of crossbows, they are nearly equal in numbers to firearms hunters, the overharvest of does and button bucks, has led to a major decline of resource populations in many areas, especially in the U.P.

[jbrown]

Agreed but its a huge cash cow to offer up unlimited doe tags per county. I'm afraid the almighty dollar will win this

[ridge]

I am not sure that it is due to crossbows.  I use one and I do not fill my tags every year.  My granddaughter says that the crossbow is too hard to use, lol. I think it is giving out too many antlerless permits and the overuse of the archery law altogether.  Also people are encouraged to take antlerless deer due to the MARs regulations.  When no bucks are seen on state land, the angry hunters get an archery tag and harvest one of the few antlerless deer left. The DNR is mishandling the entire situation just like they are with MARs. 

[daappleknocker]

It is my understanding that you do not need an archery tag in the Lower to harvest a doe. You can harvest does on both combo tags with archery equipment. The mismanagement of antlerless tags is a totally different problem. The Wildlife Division has improperly manipulated antlerless tags in MAR's areas to appease the meat hunters and it will destroy hunting in those areas in due time like in the U.P. You just can not over harvest does and maintain huntable populations. Look at the U.P.

[jbrown]

Doe's on both combo tags?? First I heard that.

I used to hunt the hillman area back in the late 80's. Did well. And hunting in that area is picking up again. But for yrs after the bovine tb slaughter. You eere hard pressed to see a deer. There is a family owned 400 up there. My dad who used to hunt. Went several seasons after the tb scandal and only seen 4 deer

[Dale Malusi]

So here's what we need;
1: Separate tags for antlered and antlerless.
2:Separate tags for those that want to hunt with a bow and those that want to hunt with a firearm. No tag needed for spears.
3; One antlered and one antlerless tag allowed over the counter. All others by lottery only, lottery tags will be proportionate public/private.
4: Lottery tags will be DMU specific.

Anything else?

[ridge]

daappleknocker, I did not realize that antlerless deer can be taken on both combo licenses in the lower during archery season until you mentioned it and I checked it.  I would assume that would mean that both combo tags could be used on antlerless deer during the December archery hunt if they are not previously filled.  That would seem to present the DNR with an enforcement problem as it states that they can not be used for antlerless deer during the muzzleloading season.  In 487, the Btb area, antlerless deer can be taken with both combo licenses during any season.  No wonder that the deer are vanishing.

I find the muzzleloading rule to be shocking as I was told by the DNR that the reason that we can not open carry during the archery season is that the DNR can not tell the difference between an arrow kill and a bullet kill.  This sure does not make sense to me.  [If that is actually true, how can they tell the difference during muzzleloading season?]

Perhaps the intent of the DNR is to sell tags until the deer are gone.

[jbrown]

Dec 13, 2016 22:17:41 GMT -5 ridge said:

daappleknocker, I did not realize that antlerless deer can be taken on both combo licenses in the lower during archery season until you mentioned it and I checked it.  I would assume that would mean that both combo tags could be used on antlerless deer during the December archery hunt if they are not previously filled.  That would seem to present the DNR with an enforcement problem as it states that they can not be used for antlerless deer during the muzzleloading season.  In 487, the Btb area, antlerless deer can be taken with both combo licenses during any season.  No wonder that the deer are vanishing.

I find the muzzleloading rule to be shocking as I was told by the DNR that the reason that we can not open carry during the archery season is that the DNR can not tell the difference between an arrow kill and a bullet kill.  This sure does not make sense to me.  [If that is actually true, how can they tell the difference during muzzleloading season?]

Perhaps the intent of the DNR is to sell tags until the deer are gone.

they can detect traces of lead/copper in a wound chanel. And #2 if the bruised/bloodshot meat a bulle leaves behind is not proof enough that it was a bullet vs an arrow. Maybe those agents should find a new career field..

I had an agent.in my area tell it was illegal for me to use a gun mounted light while hunting coyotes at night. He came out and stated hean held only.. true hand held is the description in the book. But that hand held can be gun mounted.. most of them don't have a clue..

Up near fishpoint in cattails and 10" of water we were waterfowl hunting. We used a otter sled to carry gear into the area. And to keep certain things dry while we swatted ducks.. a dnr officer approached after a couple hrs of us being there. We were considerate and unloaded both guns before he got to us and both guns were laying in the sled with actions open.

He went through everything license, stamp, plugs, non toxic shotshells, types of ducks and not over our limits. Everything checked out. Then he turned to us and asked us for out PFD's because our sled was a boat.. and then read us the riot act for not having them.. he ruined our day to the point we packed gear and walked out

[ridge]

jbrown, I, too, have experienced that heavy-handed, unprofessional approach.  After having talked with unbelieving or uncooperative superiors, I don't know what can be done about it.  Keeping our cool and walking away is about the only realistic thing that can be done.